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Forums :: Reality's End Classic :: Merry Christmas

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Chiriru Mai

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Dec 28, 2001 10:52
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  On Dec 28, 2001 11:23, Ryuujin said:
  
...but I swear when I was younger, kids didn't go aorund in designer gear, trying to act like grown ups - girls didn't wear make-up at 8 years old, and the first rumours of sex didn't filter down until about 11 y/o - one kid was only about I dunno, 8 or 9 y/o, he kept yelling obscenities and trying to be threatening...

  
  Hai, this is a thing that I almost constantly rant about in my blog. I'm sorry to say that I'm not too proud to live in the US of A. Sure, freedom rocks and all, but it's just that too much freedom... It causes exactly what you said.
  
  Which, my friend, is sickening.
  
  Honestly, seven-year-olds do NOT have to act and dress like Britney Spears and Eminem; they do NOT have to know those words, and they do NOT have to act like THAT. Furthermore, I believe that half of those kids who act big and tough can actually have the crap beat out of them by, say for example, a kid who lived his/her life in China.
  
  And, no, that kid can't really harm you. Don't you have a correctional facility for juvenille delinquents? (I'm sorry if I spelled that wrong. I'm not the best of spellers.)
  
  I don't know which to blame, really. The media for teaching them that, or the parents for letting them learn. *sighs*
Yours truly,
  Miss Mai
MintMan

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Dec 28, 2001 14:26
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  I'll tell ya who's to blame: discipline and society.
  Society has a way of teaching children that everything can be blamed on someone else; they take no responsibility for their own actions. Look at how Beavis and Butthead got blamed for that idiot burning down his trailor!
  Another thing society has done is taught children to like themselves and everything they do. There is so much wrong with this I don't even know when to start. I just read a recent study that showed self-confidence in children is up, but there is no apparent increase in test scores or decrease in base activities like juvenile crimes or pregnacies to go with it. What does this show? Youths feel whatever they want should go! They have no shame. A sense of right-and-wrong isn't instilling itself in these children. The only conscience they are gaining is that of their own construction. If they like it, it must be good.
  Another error of society is the half-arsed censorship. We feel that children can't be exposed to a bloody thing in America (no where else in the world has this sort of problem) that is violent or in some other way inappropriate, we take all of these cosmetic measures such as ratings to keep children away, and we enforce them none! It just drives the idiot little munchkins to it all the more (and to a further extreme) if we want to keep it from and do nothing to ensure it is. When these people actually get into the real world, they are so screwed...
  And a lack of corporal discipline is not making for well-structured children. Granted, it was needed so that abuse can not take place, but the easiest way to learn does take some pain. Not a lot; just a slap on the wrist or back of the hand with two fingers is enough to get the message through. In not too long at all, the bad behavior will be conditioned out.
  
  Anywho, that's my compressed rant on't. I could go on for longer, but... I have books to read.
Ryuujin

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Dec 28, 2001 16:00
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  I dunno about the "painful punishment" - that appears to be one of the factors that have made stuff worse, if you teach them to be reasonable and thoughtful from the start you should be able to explain what is right and wrong, and reserve measures such as a slap for the msot extreme scenario (like what the nuclear bomb is in arguements between nations, the final resort when nothing else will get it thru to them).
  
  I only got slapped a few times to my memory when I was younger, yet I didn't wind up an "I'm-the-center-of-the-universe-I'll-make-your-life-hell-if-it-makes-me-feel-better" because I was taught a good set of morals - if I did something wrong my parents would take the time to speak to me...
  
  ...something else lacking from modern society really too - have you noticed how parents sit their kids in front the TV while they have their own life, if the kid wants to know something they just fob them off to go away; My nephew for example (he's about 5) saw something on discovery channel and asked his mum why that was - she just made some quick short crap story to get him to go away and watch TV without bugging her... (Shortly after I tried to explain plate techtonics to him in the simplest way possible, but I think he's a little young for a full explanation of "why that happens" - but you get my point).
MintMan

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Dec 29, 2001 24:39
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  That is actually just enough, Ryuu: gettin' smacked a few times is all you need. I learned this from my Psych class (and my teacher was one smart dude; why? He wasn't raised in America ^_^). My teacher went into fine detail about what kind of punishment should be used. If ever a punishment seriously injured or frightened a subject, the effect negates itself and worsens the sitiation.
  All that is required is a slight correction. Technically, a twenty volt shock would do the trick, but most parents don't carry that kinda stuff around with them... but they should.
Chiriru Mai

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Dec 29, 2001 12:27
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  On Dec 29, 2001 6:40, MintMan said:
  
That is actually just enough, Ryuu: gettin' smacked a few times is all you need.

  
  Normally, I would agree with your ideas, MintMan, but I have to agree with Ryuujin's comment on using violence as a punishment. Sure, it would only be a few smacks, but would it not also teach the child that it's okay to hit other people?
  
  I also agree with the fact that if you start with teaching the child about what's right and what's wrong, you won't have this problem. After all, start with a good seed, end up with a good flower, so to speak.
  
  Ryuujin HAS pointed out an important factor: The parents just don't care. If the parents actually cared about what would happen to their kid in the future, they would spend time with them, instead of making them watch TV, which, sometimes, causes the problems due to channel surfing on to something that just isn't right for a little kid.
  
  That and the parents also spoil their little kid to no end. Partially, it's what the parent gives the child that causes problems (for instance, a toy gun or a rather violent video game), but it's also that it teaches the child that you don't have to work to get everything you want.
  
  *sighs* I'd hate to blame it on the older generation, but it's partially their fault. Instead of asking "What is it with kids these days?" they should actually take time to raise their kid and teach them morals, responsibility, etc.
  
  MintMan, I also see your point where you said that society in general is to blame due to teaching the children that it's okay to blame everything on everything else and that no one enforces the rules. I have to say that this is true also.
  
  (Hmmm... The latter actually is an example of what happens when there's just too much freedom...)
  
  And one other point that I just thought of: Kids don't listen. You tell them to do something, and they go off and do something else. You try to explain something, and they ignore you. I've encountered this one too many times with my own peers, and not only is it bloody annoying, but it also just shows where some forms of disciplining just don't work.
  
  So, in some respects, I guess you're right, MintMan. Perhaps a few smacks might help, but only if it's the last resort.
Yours truly,
  Miss Mai
Ryuujin

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Dec 29, 2001 13:44
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  Oh - contrary to how it sounded I don't advocate the use of violence as a means period - 2 wrongs don't make a right, and hitting a child is a BIG wrong, the couple of occasions I was hit as a kiddy was from Dad, he does think it's right, but mum was distictly against that, and it was on a couple of occasions he lost his temper and failed to hold back.
  
  Nah I've seen too many kids wrecked by that kind of behaviour - one example was a kid who's actually got a "notably below average IQ" - he was hit for everything when he was little, these days he doesn't pay a bit of attention to his parents (although I've gotta say they are very VERY harse, and even I find them annoying - odd considering the mum is a devout Christian) - and my sister regulary smacks her 2 kids for everything, and boy are they 2 screwed up kids, my niece is 8 going on angst-filled-15-year old, and nephew (5 y/o) is practiclly the same as I was at that age intelligence/knowledge wise, but a lot more violent (Maybe this is an example of the difference nurture can add to the nature aspect).
  
  Just adding to what Mai said about them channel surfing - when I finally got Digital TV, my niece taught me how to use the more advanced channel options before I had time to figure it out myself
MintMan

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Dec 30, 2001 2:50
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  Okay, you people are missing out on one of my main points: I never said to beat nor smack the Hel out of the children! I said a light correctional hit on the back of the child's hand acts as a quick, effectient, and minimally painful behavioral device!
  I was quite certain to make sure I said that beatin was not the answer. In fact, I was quite certain to say that it actually makes the subject turn out very screwed up.
  And you people are also forgetting something else: this isn't teaching the children it is right to hit people. They are children; do you have any idea how stupid they are? Moreover, you have only until the second-half of their seventh year in life to teach them; after that, they are psychopaths (those without remorse; serial killers and such).
  It is a simple procedure: associating that whenever you do something bad, something bad will happen to you. Stimulus generalization will spread gettin' a light strike for, say, shouting in the grocery store to hitting one's little sister. The child will know that he/she was told not to do both, and if punished for one, will be punished for the other. Children are stupid. "Timeouts" don't effect them much as they cannot yet associate what it is that they did wrong (unless they have already developed a Superego, in which case it should work).
  Two fingers against the wrist and a stern "No" -- not shouting "Don't do that" and a beating. There is a world of differences.
MadGoblin

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Dec 30, 2001 8:33
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  Merry X-Mas to all you to (just felt like saying that)
  Man, I've been away for too long. You people talk to much ;.; Well, I'll still give this response a try:
  
  Punishment works. Bottom line. Why? I'm the perfect example. I never got in trouble at school, get good grades, never arrested, never... well, done anything that could even be considered wrong. Why? Simple.
  My father scares the bloody half to death!
  
  When I was young and would fight with my brother, BAM! Knocked to the floor. Did I ever do that again? Bawdy no. But the great thing about that method is that : 1) it lasts, and 2) it need not be performed much. I'll be thirty years old and he can be decreped in a wheelchair and he'll still frighten me. And what I meant my the latter comment, once you get hit once or twice total (i think that's all he had to do it), just the twitch of the body that even looks like it may be to slap you will scare you silly, thus disciplining you without physical harm.
  
  So you see, intimidation of physical harm is really the more accurate punishment, and even then still for more severe mis-deeds.
  
  So, whether or not I made any sense, you can't blame me, I got brain damage for being beat as a child... also, Beavis and Butthead made me do it :P
Chiriru Mai

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Dec 30, 2001 18:20
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  On Dec 30, 2001 8:51, MintMan said:
  
Okay, you people are missing out on one of my main points: I never said to beat nor smack the Hel out of the children! I said a light correctional hit on the back of the child's hand acts as a quick, effectient, and minimally painful behavioral device!

  
  Ah! I see. (It's the way you put it earlier that made me misunderstand.)
  
  Yes, your idea of setting a child right is a bit effective. The usage of a firm "no" will do wonders, even by itself, really. And I guess the tap would add to that.
  
  Now if only parents knew that when their child was born...
  
  *sighs* I should back out of this conversation. I suddenly realise how stupid I sounded after I read your latest post.
  
  As for the Bevis and Butthead comments... yeah. There's a reason why I don't watch that show... -_-
Yours truly,
  Miss Mai
MintMan

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Dec 31, 2001 1:22
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  I would just like to clarify that Beavis and Butthead rule.
  Mike Judge was cool when not King of the Hill oriented :/
  I mean, if that show is good enough for my college English professor (a Doctor, by the way), then it is bloody good enough for me!
  I just wish I coulda seen some of the really early episodes they aren't allowed to error any more. *sigh*
Chiriru Mai

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Dec 31, 2001 12:46
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  On Dec 31, 2001 7:23, MintMan said:
  
I would just like to clarify that Beavis and Butthead rule.

  
  Sorry, dear. Didn't mean to offend you (or any other Bevis and Butthead fan). ^_^; It's just that I'm not really into that kind of humor anymore... =\
Yours truly,
  Miss Mai
MintMan

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Jan 1, 2002 9:58
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  I am such a fanboy! A fake Anime fanboy!!! POOP!!!
  
  EDIT: Oy veh, my brother used my cookies to make a post as me. Just ignore this...
  
"Mmmmmm, unexplained bacon." - Homer
  
  [Editted by MintMan on Jan 2, 2002 20:46]
MadGoblin

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Jan 1, 2002 10:13
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  Ah huh huh. Ah huh huh. You said 'butt'.
  Seriously tho, that humor can never die. Especially when they make fun of people who blame things on themselves.
msanis

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Jan 1, 2002 11:36
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  anyway i don't know how you guys got from merry christmas to the violent behavior of children, and the parents reactions.....
  
  but heres what i think on the matter yes you should hit them but only to a certain extent, really you don't want to hit your kid till he or she is braindead, or to the point that the child has bruises personally i don't think i could do that though even though that probably would fix any problems.
i bet this post was a stupid one....well maybe...
MintMan

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Jan 1, 2002 14:53
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  FYI that last post wasn't me. My older brother used my cookie to impersonate me.
  And, bloody Odin MSanis, we have already explained this like eight-thousand times already: no one here is saying you should beat your children. If you would have read anything said on this page, you would know that all-too well. Oy veh...
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