im not sure but it may depend on what you use the attack against. i think if you used a special attack on the same type of beast (dark for example)
the attack will be less and physical attacks like bite would do more, i think that's how it works.i bet this post was a stupid one....well maybe...
MintMan
Posts: 4061
Member #1
Dec 22, 2001 22:41
With the Nidafells' Dragon's Arcane and the fact that ShadowBurner is a stronger spell, Shadow Burner is a better attack technically. It reall depends on the situation. Against a high-virtue-low-defense creature, Bite would be better.
So, when fighting a Hrimfax, for example, Bite away. That is unless I've already added type-effectiveness to BD, which I don't think I have or will until I can finish the cycle of elements (I can't think of what Ice could hurt...).
MadGoblin
Posts: 1515
Member #2
Dec 23, 2001 11:41
Well, Ice would normally be effective to (IMO) Fire, Plant, Earth, Water, and... er... winged thingies.
... hm... A screw it. Can't you just make it the same element as water?
MintMan
Posts: 4061
Member #1
Dec 24, 2001 24:50
Nein! They have to be seperate elements; they are too different.
Okay, Heat overcomes Cold anyday. Fire hurts Ice, not vice versa.
Plant is hardly an element. A Phenotype, maybe, but not an element.
Water? C'mon! Ice is a subtype of Water. Water's components are Wet and Cold. Why would another cold thing hurt it? It wouldn't.
Earth is also Cold. It wouldn't be hurt by Ice. Ever hear of permafrost? Yeah, that ground is just fallin' apart...
Winged things is another Phenotypical thing. I'm asking for elements ovah here.
MadGoblin
Posts: 1515
Member #2
Dec 24, 2001 9:04
Okay, first of all, I was just going screwy at the end their 'cuz there really was nothing else. I know 'winged thingies' is not an element. Doi.
Second, heat does not _always_ take out fire. Cooling a fire is one of the ways of putting it out. (just to make you choke on your own words: water=cold+moist > fire=warm+dry. oh, look at that, somethin' cold beat somethin' warm! golly gee) Now, in the cycle, you probably already have it so that fire hurts ice (since there really isn't much else it can hurt), but it was just a suggestion.
Third, earth freezes, as does water, therefor, are subjectable to the cold. I mean, really. If some type of freaky water elemental or earth elemental was heading at ya, and you shot a giant freeze blast at it, it wouldn't be a problem anymore.
And what are you even doing asking me if I know what permafrost is? I'm your freakin' brother! You know I know! And while on the subject, don't be trying to act like I don't know the components of the basics elements, I learn that when you did.
Anyhoo, by elemental composional standards, Air should be weak to Ice. If Ice is assumed to be cold incarnate and Air=moist+warm (no where near the warmth of fire, so don't even try to pull that, plus i already explained in a prior example stuff and whatnot), then technically, the cold should easily consume the heat and freeze the moisture. Am I right, folks?
Ash10
Posts: 435
Member #3
Dec 24, 2001 10:04
I beat Camo with Bite! Hehehehehehehehehehehe! I am useless...Experence the Game!
Game Station
Camo
Posts: 1609
Member #5
Dec 24, 2001 18:49
No shadow burner is useless, hmm... why would some strong bugger learn a weak attack? Beats the f_ck outta me!I am lord of the lair my lair
Um, Camo, did you ever stop and think that it was the fact that a DARK typed attack wasn't hurting a DARK typed monster. Could it be something with the DARK type?
Now for my idiot brother!
On Dec 24, 2001 15:5, MadGoblin said:
Second, heat does not _always_ take out fire.
... yeah, real smart.
(just to make you choke on your own words: water=cold+moist > fire=warm+dry. oh, look at that, somethin' cold beat somethin' warm!
No, something moist is betting something dry. Elements that are grouped together are done so by their temperatures (Fire&Air, Earth&Water). Hence, the unfriendly elemental is going to be the other component.
See, warm and cold kinda cancel out one another. Moist, however, does overtake dry. There isn't really such a thing as sorta wet; that's still wet.
Ice, being in effect the essence of cold, lacks moisture. In the elemental extreme, it is Cold + Warm + Dry = Cold + -Cold + Dry = Dry. Fire is already dry; its nature remains.
Third, earth freezes, as does water, therefor, are subjectable to the cold.
Earth doesn't freeze; moisture inside of it does. The earth elemental itself, being dry, cannot freeze as it has nothing that can.
Water is the same as above: Cold + Cold + Moist = Really Cold and Moist, making Ice largely ineffective against it.
Anyhoo, by elemental composional standards, Air should be weak to Ice. If Ice is assumed to be cold incarnate and Air=moist+warm (no where near the warmth of fire, so don't even try to pull that, plus i already explained in a prior example stuff and whatnot)
Apparently I'm not treating you enough like an idiot. This isn't air we are talking about; it is Air, the elemental. It is nothing but Heat and Moisture atoms that exist no where on our plane in a pristine state. So yes, it is in fact as hot as Fire since it has the same temperature component: HEAT!
It's late; I'm tired; I may respond to the rest of your banter some other time...
Camo
Posts: 1609
Member #5
Dec 25, 2001 21:47
Hmmm... sorry but this is the first i have heard about elements in play...I am lord of the lair my lair
Ice is a very strange thing, the way I'm handling elemnts in Another World's battle sim is their energies and environment, or lack of them. This might give some useful ideas, but here's my alternate way of viewing the "elements" - here's long lecture but here's my thoughts on the subject...
When it comes down to it, all "elemnts" are the same thing:
Water: Chemical found in abundance in earths multi-layered atmosphere in many different forms (vapour in air, pools of it forming at lower altitudes due to cooler temperatures, higher pressure and heavier weight than the surrounding gases) - water cannot be destroyed in any sense, only blocked - in many games water is shown to be weak to eletricty, in fact it's lower resistance means electricty does NOTHING to water, electricty's only damaging features are heat output (resistance to low to generate heat) and it's effects on the nervous system of a creature with a standard carbon-based neural network.
Ice: Water when all thermal energy is drawn out of it, due to normal heat transfers anything touching ice tends to have it's heat drawn out of it, and in extreme cases of expose can begin to free itself - Ice can only be destroyed by removing the thermal energy from it, since the water molecules don't move enough to be drawn or absorbed, and it's own internal temperature will mean carrying it elsewhere isn't a short sharp means of destroying it.
Wind: Lighter chemicals (namely airborne gases) with a high amount of kinetic energy, when accelerated enough the friction caused can create an increase in thermal energy too, or in a blunt push can create and impact similar to a physical impact that could break apart molecules (resulting in injury) - wind can't so much be stopped, but counteracted, eitehr by projecting an equal force of wind towards it, changing the pressure difference in the room, or blocking it physically (in this way wind could be put in the same box as phsyical damage since both are principly the same thing - a material with kinetic enegy and mass striking a target)
Fire: When thermal energy in a region reaches a certain temperature the surrounding gases and materials can begin to break down releasing massive amount of thermal energy in a cascade reaction that appears visually as what call a "flame", if you take away an ignition chemical or lower the temperature (thermal energy) enough the cascade reaction stops maintaining itself and the fire dies out. The thermal energy on the other hand is one of the purest forms of raw energy next to dark matter, and hence can't be destroyed, simply moved about (disipated, diverted away from harm)
Electrity: Another form of energy that passes thru objects, based on their electrical resistance, high resistances result in the energy being transferred into thermal energy. If the target has no resistance, or such a high resistance it completly stops and can't pass thru it would do zero damage, althougha atrget with zero resistance that has some means of neural network could become disorientated or KO'd - electricty can only be "destroyed" by earthing it, even then thats not destroying it, simply a means of deflecting it - electricty is one of the simplest forms of energy, and as with all raw energies cannot be destroyed, only passed on.
Items marked in italics arn't true energies - really for a 21st century game would should drop it with the rather arcane elements since it's a load of crap made by the early philosophers and alchemists - energy is what does the damage and effects. as I highlighted above, water is a chemical, not an element, it's only damaging due to the fact it suffocates reactions (be it air we breath, or oxygen burnt by a flame - in turn lowering your bio-electric energy and killing you after time by a series of chemical shutdowns), many chemicals also do that, so we need a new way of labelling that really - fire is a visual effect caused by thermal energies creating a cascade reaction in the surrounding materials - if a dragon was to breath fire over somone, it's not the flame that kills them, it's the extreme heat, and damage that it causes to the skin.
Ice came close, again ice is a visual effect of the energies - or in this case lack of energy - extreme lack of thermal energies (cold) causes ice crystals to from from moisture in the body which in turn lacerates cells causing them to rupture, also extreme cold lowers body reactions.
So now we have just thermal (Heat, Cold) kinetic (Phsyical/Wind) electrical (Argueably, since it converts to heat)
...you can tell who could have become a scientist rather than a programmer... trouble is one of them involves to much paperwork for my likings
Camo
Posts: 1609
Member #5
Dec 30, 2001 24:51
Camo's usless crap lesson1
Did you know that electricity does not conduct water, electricity actually jumps from particle to particle of grit in the water thus seemingly water cunductrs electricity, BUT if you have 100% sterile water, electricity will not be cunductedI am lord of the lair my lair
That's all good and well, but you have to remember that would only work for a futuristic game like your Another World.
The four elements may have been created by philosophers that had no idea what they were talking about, but everything in a medeval fantasy RPG is based on those very same ideas; that's what makes it fantastic and old-timie.
You're description of the elements was very elaborate as energies, but that doesn't concern a medeval game. They believed in four basic components that could not be found in pure anywhere on our world; the water of the sea is not Water; a candle does not have true Fire on its wick. These are bastardized versions of the true thing. And that is percisely what I consider for a game (as do most other RPGs).
I mean, Water itself is so sucky that most games don't even consider its Elemental. The only thing it can do is drown you (which requires vast amounts). Now, I know some of you are going to say that at high-pressures, it can be quite powerful, but truth is that anything is powerful at high-pressures, so that don't mean a bloody thing! Move something fast and it's strong. Big whoop!
When using science, you can always find some reason why something should be effective or not effective against something else. To counter Ryuujin's water point, one could say the the creature of the water type would not be completely composed of water and therefore any organic components hurt duelly by it (unless it were an Undine or something and thereby completely composed of water, in which case, yeah, it'd be immune). When you use Warm, Cold, Dry, and Moist atomies, tho', the effects are much easier to calculate since you have less factors to consider. The problem only comes, as I said above, when you want to include quasi-elements as well.
Oh well, me outy.
Ryuujin
Posts: 176
Member #11
Dec 30, 2001 6:22
Hey camo - it may well jump between the particles of grit, but the effect in the end is that water still holds virtually no resistance, and hence doesn't heat up (much) by passing an electric current thru it =p
*Attaches electrodes to Camo's "extremities" and sadisticly passes a current thru him repeatedly making him twitch about*
MintMan
Posts: 4061
Member #1
Dec 31, 2001 1:32
I was just thinkin' about this today, and the only real true way to work out type-effectiveness is:
Just like Final Fantasy does it; on a creature-to-creature basis. Every creature would have to be flagged by dually weak, dually resistence, entirely resistent, resistent with pies, et cetera.
Of course, this would usually only work for a normal RPG and not one populated with creatures in which a consistent format is needed so... yeah.
Camo
Posts: 1609
Member #5
Dec 31, 2001 7:32
Wow, thanks for that electrafying experience, my life flashed before my eyes! I think the best way to go Kero, is to make your own way of figuring out not elements, but who beats up who, hmmm... anyone remember "fists full of aliens"? Well thats only three types, but you can create our own types of creatures, which I think I'll do with necosanguin if I ever do get to remaking it.....I am lord of the lair my lair
Yes, the Tri-Elemental table always works best since one always hurts another and doesn't to the remaining. Remember Battle Beast? (They were actually made by the same Japanese company that made Transformers; they were even in an episode never premeired outside of Japan [boo!])
Three elements: Water extinguished Fire; Fire consumed Wood; Wood blocked Water.
It don't get much easier than dat!"Mmmmmm, unexplained bacon." - Homer
Camo
Posts: 1609
Member #5
Jan 2, 2002 10:33
Nononon, I like the fists fulls of aliens "gangreen, redrock and blue spu" much more authentic.I am lord of the lair my lair
Whadafrickin'el? You based yours on a game, yet you tell me (who took i from direct, classical elemental tables used in actual alchemy/magick) to base it on 'mithology'? ... Does anyone else see somethin' wrong with this scenario?
MintMan
Posts: 4061
Member #1
Sep 5, 2002 12:35
I see something very, very wrong. It is a mistake, and it made the post that is under so much question.
Why are you digging up this old post, saying some stuff that you stole from another game -- so I obviously can't use it due to theft and plagarism and just being unoriginal -- when there is a recent post I just made in a topic that is currently being talked in, not one that has been dead for over half a year, with how all the type effectiveness works in BD. Why, please tell me, why did you make this freakin' post?
