Let me start off by saying im not complaining. I don't understand how speed works though. I was recently in a tourney battle my starting speed is 28 my opponents was a 14. I was increasing my speed and getting it decreased as far as I can tell I should have still been above a 28 speed. It seems in other battles that you wind up with 2 turns before your opponent gets one turn if you speed is well above your opponents. Is this the case or no matter what your speed and your opponents speed is you get turn for turn in actions. Once again not a complaint just want to understand how speed works and if the bennifit is worth it to increase.
Lym
What does not kill you makes you stronger
MintMan
Posts: 4061
Member #1
Jun 2, 2006 10:50
Having twice the speed of your opponent does not mean you will act twice as much. BD is not a game of magnitudes, but rather of differences. You have fourteen more -- not twice as much, in BD's eyes -- so this would be the same amount of actions as if you and your opponent were fourteen and zero or one thousand and nine hundred eighty-six.
Second, ever since the altered strike system, speed has been slowly decreased in effectiveness. Whereas strike was changed to equal the approximate effect of one-half of an offensive stat (as it increases the effective damage of all offense), speed was still acting with full effectiveness, which bodes very poorly since it can be correlated to both physical and magical strength.
Thus, it has been ticking down by tenths until it too reaches the one-half effectiveness mark.
Like the agility changes, this is not depowering -- just making the stat par with the rest.
Also, I would like to know how the Hel you exactly start a battle with twenty-eight speed. Your fastest monster has only twenty-five speed, and it cannot even learn Celestial, so there is no hopes of it hitting two-eight.
Also, you must remember that speed is not so much turn-for-turn as it is acting in real time before spell effects wear off.
Lastly, I cannot even find any tourneys that occured in the time of the change (after the King of Springtime) that even meet the conditions you described (an opponent with fourteen speed), so that just compounds the question of "WTF, mate?"
You sure you ain't lookin' at another stat 'sides speed on your opponent? The entire situation seems suspect...
Lymfada
Posts: 187
Member #214
Jun 2, 2006 18:56
Mint,
you are correct Reavers speed was 24 and when I looked it had increased to 28 the other creature had a natural 14 speed and no way to increase it. Once again I'm just trying to understand how speed works but here is an excert from a previous battle it was in the Fifth Dusk Anniversary Special now there are other times when a creature I have fought has gone twice before I have gone and of course I have gone twice before they have gone during the battle.
Begin bout between lymfada's Phoenix and DoomStar's Aurora! The field is illuminated by Phoenix. Aurora carries DoomStar into the battle. Phoenix uses ShiningBrilliance. Aurora is brutally damaged. Phoenix flies high above. Phoenix's Speed went up. Aurora uses Legendary. Aurora's Agility was increased. Aurora's Virtue increased slightly. Phoenix uses Rise. Phoenix's regains life. Phoenix's Virtue increased slightly. Aurora uses Bellow. Phoenix's Strength decreased severely. Phoenix uses Renewal. Aurora is somewhat wounded by the blow. Phoenix's regains life. Aurora uses Smash. Phoenix is brutally wounded by the attack. Phoenix uses Rise. Phoenix's regains life. Phoenix's Virtue increased slightly. Aurora uses Stab. Phoenix dodges the attack. Phoenix uses ShiningBrilliance. Critical strike! Aurora is mortally hurt by the blow. Phoenix flies high above. Phoenix's Speed went up. Phoenix uses Rise. Phoenix's regains life. Phoenix's Virtue increased slightly. Aurora uses Scream. Critical strike! Phoenix is brutally injured by the spell. Phoenix uses Renewal. Aurora is somewhat injured. Phoenix's regains life. Aurora uses Smash. Phoenix is massacred by the assault. Phoenix uses Beam. Phoenix's regains life. Phoenix shakes off its Strength affliction. Aurora uses Stab. Phoenix is hit by the technique. Phoenix's Defense decreased slightly. Phoenix uses ShiningBrilliance. Aurora is brutally wounded by the banishment. Phoenix flies high above. Phoenix's Speed went up. Phoenix uses Beam. Phoenix's regains life
The last lines have Phoenix going twice due to speed I assume not sure though. I appreaciate the time you take to help me understand this aspect of the game.
Edit
The speed difference is in the current tourney Im in with Draggys Behemoth (speed 14) i when I checked had a speed of 28 due to increases. Once again please dont take it as complaining just want to understand is all
Lym
What does not kill you makes you stronger
[Edited by Lymfada on Jun 2, 2006 19:02]
MintMan
Posts: 4061
Member #1
Jun 3, 2006 24:25
Yes, speed makes you act more. That is well known. I never denied that. I just said the amount it gives double-actions has been halved as speed's effectiveness has been trending towards equality with the new strike system.
Before, your twenty-eight speed Reaver would have acted one-and-two-fifths times for every action a standard monster would make. The Behemoth would have acted about three-quarters as much. Taken together, you would have received an entirely extra action almost every other action made by the Behemoth.
This system was entirely fair if you looked at the damage one sidedly. A monster with X extra points in Strength would cause the same extra amount of damage with an attack it would as if it had X extra points in speed over a given time interval.
However, the old system never took into account that a monster could also use other types of damage, such as magic. There is also the whole issue with simply using non-damaging abilities. This not only gives the monster an effective X extra points in Strength, but also Arcane or Virtue or whatever it happens to be using at the time.
Since it acts as a surrogate for multiple other stats, the speed bonus is being slowly reduced to half effectiveness. Thus, instead of acting an extra time for every other action taken by a Behemoth, you would need to wait for every three actions.
But, you didn't have a constant speed of 28; it was bouncing around your base speed through most of your match, so instead of getting a double action every third Behemoth move, 'twas every fourth, but still pretty spot-on. Check the log for yourself. You still got a double action. Lick-Confusion combo. They didn't go anywhere, just became slightly rarer (or as rare as they are supposed to be).
Lymfada
Posts: 187
Member #214
Jun 3, 2006 9:03
Thanks Mint. I was not sure and it seemed different appreaciate the explaination.
Lym
What does not kill you makes you stronger
animewatcher
Posts: 41
Member #258
Jun 5, 2006 14:33
I'd like to thank you Lymfada for asking this question, and Mint for answering it!
I too have noticed that speed doesn't affect much, aside from first action and the chance to double attack. Thus why I feel more at peace with my slow Garm.
I do notice that Kamaitachis seem to have an easier time double attacking than most monsters, and I just think that this is a species "trait", along with its high speed and agility. I know they don't actually have this; it's just how I see all Kama's and how I explain to myself for their increase in double attacks.
Thank you both again for asking and answering a question I've had in the back of my mind. "Captain Boner does not need socks to improve his package! Now, if you don't mind, I have to go fight for justice... with my boner!!!"
Lowroad75, "Socks"
MintMan
Posts: 4061
Member #1
Jun 6, 2006 12:18
Doesn't effect much?... Oh, except for the chance of a double action?!?!?
That's sorta like saying "Oh, Strength doesn't effect much. Just the damamge caused by attacks."
Dude, you went from complaining about "slow" Garm (who is two points below average speed -- far from slow) and how it gets slaughtered to thinking speed does almost nothing? No dude, no. As I just explained, it acts like a surrogate just like Strike, except it effects all actions instead of just damaging ones.
Just ask any Behemoth... speed kills.
I don't mind the sun sometimes, the images it shows.
I can taste you on my lips and smell you in my clothes.
Cinnamon and sugary and softly spoken lies,
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animewatcher
Posts: 41
Member #258
Jun 6, 2006 19:41
I put down double action. I know it does double action. It's just that I don't see as many double actions as I do in Kama's (And just so you dont' put "Well you idiot that's cuz Kama's have such flippin high speeds compared to your hydra!", I'm just saying that even when I reduce the value of my opponent's speed 10 points, and they haven't slowed me down at all, I get a double action maybe every 6 or so full turns. And I'm saying this about opponents who aren't Kama's)
And you're right. I did complain about my Garm's slow speed. Why? Because I'd never seen an adoptable monster, or used one, with speeds below 20. I also had a hard time finding "prey" because most of the active members at that level were Basi's- and good players too, not newbs. It was also at a time I thought slowing my opponents down with my Hydra gave me a huge advantage- and yet it didn't. I found out I was more concerned with keeping my opponents slow, than I was actually damaging them. Now that I see having a 10 point speed increase doesn't guarantee an extra move every turn, I feel a lot better with my Garm's ability to not be able to do anything about it's speed.
It's the ability to learn that helps our minds grow. Learn from your mistakes in the past, adapt, and grow.
"Captain Boner does not need socks to improve his package! Now, if you don't mind, I have to go fight for justice... with my boner!!!"
Lowroad75, "Socks"
MintMan
Posts: 4061
Member #1
Jun 6, 2006 20:51
Yeah, I know you mentioned double acts, but as I stated, you really seemed to blow them off like they were nothing.
No monsters below twenty speed? Let's see all of the monsters who have below average speed: Bassy, Monoceros, Ryu, and anything that's an Egg. That's about a third of the adoptable species.
As for your Hydra, it seems that you are always going up against other monsters that either increase their own speed or decrease yours: Basilisk, Nidhogg, Hrimfaxi, Jabberwock, Bennu, and now even Tatzelwurm -- all of them get a speed boost in some form or another, so of course you aren't going to get much faster than them if they are trying to catch up.
Also, an added ten speed never guaranteed an extra action every turn. Even under the old system, it was only an extra action every turn and a half. In order to double-act every turn, a monster would need twenty extra speed, which only a boosted Kamaitachi with Haste could even approach, and it would not since no one ever packs Haste on their 'Tachi anyway.
